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I’m thinking over a conversation a friend and I are having in Twitter about underwear, panties specifically. The comment was made to me that at least I’m the ‘correct’ gender for my obsessive collection of panties. I realized I don’t subscribe to that notion. Girls can wear boys clothes with little question made of them, however a boy wears girls clothes of any fashion and it’s ‘weird’ or different. I have so many friends who are gender correcting or gender fluid that I have a hard time considering there being a correct gender for panties.
Then it got me thinking of kids and specifically tomboys. I am a tomboy. I never ‘grew out of it’ like so many girls are expected to. So, do tomboys grow out of it because they want to or because society, and possibly their parents, are forcing them to. My personal opinion? I think it’s the expected gender roles defined by our society that expect girls to grow out of being tomboys, that call non masculine boys sissies and adults fags and dykes for not dressing, or acting, how we are expected to.
I am a girl. It is something I have never questioned. I am a girl who society thinks dresses like a boy, because I wear comfortable jeans and casual t-shirts and I’m more likely to be in my Vibrams or Converse than heels. I am also a tomboy who wears frilly panties and lacy bras. So, then what do you call me? I call me, me.

Date: 2011-12-16 06:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] quasiskunk.livejournal.com
Heh...guess I'm weird then >.> I like how they feel on me...and RC like me to wear them...sometimes *g*

But, as for you, yer totally weird...which is why we love ya :)

Date: 2011-12-16 06:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mwakolion.livejournal.com
Well, I actually meant that as more of a jesting poke at myself than anything about you or others.

Part of the problem for me is that I grew up with clearly defined gender roles and was given a clearly defined gender identity. Looking back, it's part of what caused me problems as a teenager. It's taken years for me to break down the barriers that I had built up around my gender identity.

I have a much different view of gender now, but I still live in a world where most people don't. And even though I am surrounded by friends that accept me for who I am, I still feel the pressure around me to conform to the traditional gender role/identity, even when I don't like it.

So while I do my best to accept myself for how I am, it's sometimes hard to feel like I'm allowed to do so.

Date: 2011-12-16 06:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stormdog.livejournal.com
I'm amused. I almost commented on your post about panties saying that I need some more too!

We had a brief discussion in my politics class about the statistically significant variance in opinion on public policy between men and women. My opinion was that it's entirely in the way people of different genders are raised. Another person believed that it's partly biological.

The fact that its more socially acceptable for a woman to wear men's clothes than vis versa is a (very!) rare case of a double-standard that works against men. At least, as a man who likes wearing women's clothing, that's my perception of it. I tend to agree with the thought that it has to do with power balance and the fight over women who wanted the right to wear trousers instead of skirts decades ago. For a woman, perceived as having less power than a man, to wear men's clothes is an attempt to take power for herself and can be lauded for those reasons. For a man to wear women's clothing is likewise seen as relinquishing his societal claim to power and is subject to derision.

I'm with you; I think tomboys who "grow out of it" do so because of external pressure. I suspect there are some who take disapproval as a reason to become even more firmly ensconced in their 'tomboy-ism' too. When I was in school and I disliked and was bad at sports, I was made fun of for it. That made me even more inclined to not like sports. Not just because I was bad at them; I was actively spiting people who thought I should enjoy them.

Date: 2011-12-16 08:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enveri.livejournal.com
I partly disagree regarding tomboys growing out of it- I'm sure some girls put aside the men's clothes due to societal constraints, but I don't think all do.

I have spent the bulk of my life dressing as a tomboy. I'm starting to wear more and more 'girly' clothes because I like the way they make me feel, not because I feel I have to. :)

I grew up in a very religious, conservative environment. So it may be that I'm just subconsciously programmed to want to be girly, but.. I choose to believe that it's my own choice. :)

Date: 2011-12-17 09:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sylverfox.livejournal.com
Re: Sports.

In my time in the fandom, I have noticed a backlash against sports. It doesn't seem as evident in the younger crowd but with us, I would hear so much whining about how people didn't like sports. I grew up in a household where baseball, football and basketball were on the TV at all times. I also used to enjoy going outside and playing said sports. But, when I got into furry and saw folks who turned their noses up at the notion of sports, I never understood. Now it makes a bit more sense.

Date: 2011-12-17 10:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stormdog.livejournal.com
*nods* Obivously I can't speak for other peoples' experiences, but I grew up hating team sports. I had no interest whatsoever in watching or playing them because the culture surrounding them was unrelentingly negative.

When I played in a softball game that Stevie organized ten years or so ago, I was amazed. It was the first time I'd ever actually enjoyed playing in a team sport. I still don't have any interest in watching them and I find a lot of aspects of the large-scale culture that surrounds them very puzzling. But I can appreciate the small-scale experience of doing something physical and fun with people you know.

Date: 2011-12-17 10:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sylverfox.livejournal.com
I remember that game. That was the first time I met you, actually.

And sports can be fun without all of the negative connotations surrounding the concept of competition and such. It was why I started the LAFF softball games all those years ago, as a way to do something else other than sitting around eating and getting fat. ;) And even then, it was met with trepidation from those who said that they sucked at sports, etc. My response was, "Who cares? Come out, get some sun and just have fun, whether you strike out or hit a home run." And now, thirteen years later, the games are still a fixture within LAFF events. So I was glad to help change some people's minds...

Date: 2011-12-16 07:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lisagems.livejournal.com
Unfortunately, your experience with wearing more masculine clothes is not everyones. I got tons of crap for wearing jeans and flannel shirts through Jr. High and my freshman year. I still see articles about school discriminating against girls who prefer to wear "boys' clothes", down to refusing to add a picture of a girl wearing a tux, instead of a dress, in the yearbook or refusing to let girls wear tuxedos to prom. To this day, while I have plenty of dressy dress things, I'm still more comfortable in masculine clothes. I'm still more tomboy than girly girl and I still hear about it from various people. I just don't much care.

I do, however, care when it comes to younger women, or girls, who may very well be trying to learn about their real gender identity. Society definitely pushes girls to wear 'girls' clothes' and eschew things for boys. Just look at the most recent epbot blog. Little girl all excited about getting to be her favorite character from start trek for halloween, Spock. Not only is she harrased by her peers for chosing to dress as a boy for halloween, even one of the *teachers* said she looked "weird" in the costume. It's freakin' halloween you a$$hat$! Would you say she looked weird if she dressed as a frog, or a zombie, or a pumpkin? No. But she looks weird because the character she dressed as was male.

(pant pant pant, whups, got a little ranty)

Date: 2011-12-16 07:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stormdog.livejournal.com
You make a very good point there about discouragement of "male" wear for girls. I guess I was thinking in the much more limited scope of workplace attire.

Date: 2011-12-16 07:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stormdog.livejournal.com
And I'm showing a bias there again. Specifically, I mean in professional, white collar workplace attire. ('Cause that's the only place where real work gets done, right? *I can't even type that with a straight face.*)

Date: 2011-12-17 02:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cal-foxx.livejournal.com
Well, never let it be said that I haven't worn my share of panties in the past, and still do on occasion, even now with my current appearance. I can't deny they feel better than men's undies to me. Though I guess I never knew you to wear lacy undies yourself. That sure gives me something to imagine at least.

Date: 2011-12-17 09:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sylverfox.livejournal.com
One of my coworkers was looking at some pop-culture rag and there were some pictures of Justin Bieber. One of the photos was him with his pants hanging off his ass (which is a conversation for another day) showing pink underwear. This sets me off into a mock-rant (WTF? Pink drawers? Really?) and then it was mentioned that he likes to wear women's jeans as well. I paused in my rant to state that women's jeans are actually quite comfortable, which of course, drew a laugh.

Whatever, yo. Wear what makes you comfortable because no one else is responsible for your comfort and happiness but you.

Date: 2011-12-18 03:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] awfulhorrid.livejournal.com
Yeah, I have also have a hard time with the idea of there being a correct gender for ... well, anything really. (Setting aside, at least for now, the limitation on carrying a fetus to term, although that one won't last more than a few more decades.)

I'm about to place an order for some nice lacy lingerie for myself, including a garter belt and matching pair of ruffled panties. This may give a bit of an insight into how I feel about how I'm 'supposed' to dress, although I'll admit a bit of perverse satisfaction on fucking with that idea on purpose.

Anyway, I call you 'friend.'

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